WEBVTT
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It's July 21st, and we have a lot to talk about.
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If you've spent any time at all living with or caring for someone with multiple
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sclerosis, you know that medical
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textbooks and information-filled websites can only tell you so much.
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They give us facts, they give us figures and symptoms, but they rarely capture the sometimes messy,
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sometimes overwhelming, and sometimes darkly funny reality of what it actually
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feels like to get a diagnosis of MS and realize your life has suddenly shifted under your feet.
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My guest this week is Liat Shalom, an award-winning graphic novelist who was
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diagnosed with MS at the age of 30 in 2021.
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Instead of letting that diagnosis define her, Liat picked up her pen and created
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Unraveled, a groundbreaking graphic memoir that refuses to sugarcoat the MS experience.
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Whether you're newly diagnosed or you've been navigating this journey for decades,
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I think you're going to find Liat's perspective on using art to process trauma
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while finding a little humor along the way incredibly refreshing.
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We're going to talk about the graphic medicine movement, how to advocate for
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yourself when the medical jargon feels like a foreign language,
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and why she believes we need more honesty and less inspiration porn in the MS community.
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But before we get to my conversation with Liat Shalom, there are a few other
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things that you should know about. Thank you.
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About five years ago, evidence in a landmark study confirmed that the Epstein-Barr
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virus, or EBV, was a trigger for MS.
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Not the cause, but a necessary factor.
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Until recently, it wasn't clear how this virus interacted with the immune system.
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And this is important to understand when you realize that about 90% of the world
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population is carrying the Epstein-Barr virus, but far, far fewer people actually develop MS.
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Study results published just last week may provide those answers.
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Biologists discovered that in people living with MS, a specific type of immune
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cell, called CD4-plus T-cells, is hyperreactive to very specific parts of the Epstein-Barr virus.
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Up until now, scientists have
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focused heavily on the virus while it was dormant or latent in the body.
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But this new research reveals that the T-cells in MS patients are actually locked
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onto the proteins that form the outer shell of the virus when it's actively replicating.
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In fact, the researchers found 2.5 times more of these EBV-specific CD4-plus
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T cells in individuals with untreated MS compared to healthy controls.
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So why does this matter? Well, first, it maps out the exact biological mechanism
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that causes the immune system to misidentify brain tissue as an active threat and attack myelin.
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And second, identifying this precise target
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gives scientists a clear path for developing highly targeted therapies,
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antiviral immunomodulations, and specialized EBV vaccines designed to stop this
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specific reaction before it ever starts.
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And if there's no reaction to EBV, there's no MS.
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It's an incredibly hopeful milestone, and we'll be tracking how this translates
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into future research and clinical trials.
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If you'd like to review the details of the study, you'll find that link in today's show notes.
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Newly published study results address one of the most frustrating experiences
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for anyone living with MS, the sudden onset of symptoms that feel like a relapse
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but aren't necessarily caused by new disease activity.
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These pseudo-exacerbations or pseudo-relapses are often triggered by external
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factors like a fever, extreme heat, stress, or just sheer exhaustion.
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But they send the same neurological signals as a clinical relapse.
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Now, historically, the gold standard for confirming whether someone is experiencing
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a relapse or a pseudo-relapse has been an urgent MRI.
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But getting an MRI isn't always fast, easy, or affordable.
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So researchers at the Dallas VA Medical Center set out to see if a simple blood
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test could do the heavy lifting instead.
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They evaluated the Octave MSDA test to see if this blood test could accurately
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distinguish a true MRI-confirmed relapse from a pseudo-exacerbation,
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and the results are pretty compelling.
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The study found that the MSDA test was highly effective at identifying patients
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who had genuine MRI-confirmed disease activity.
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In fact, when the research team compared it to analyzing neurofilament light,
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which is considered a reliable biomarker signaling nerve damage in the central nervous system,
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the MSDA test showed greater accuracy in flagging active relapses.
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So what does this mean for someone living with MS today? Well,
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right now, if that person wakes up with new vision issues or weakness or numbness,
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the clinical default is either let's wait and see or let's schedule an MRI.
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This study suggests we're at a point in time when a blood draw could provide
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your care team with immediate, actionable data.
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And when the symptoms are shown to be just temporary pseudo-flares,
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this test could help someone avoid unnecessary courses of high-dose steroids,
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which carry their own side effects.
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Now, we aren't quite at the point when a blood test can replace the MRI,
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but the Octave MSDA test represents a major step toward more personalized,
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rapid decision-making in the clinic.
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It's about getting the right treatment at the right time and steering clear
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of the treatment you don't need.
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Just a reminder that the Octave MSDA test is not experimental.
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It's not investigational.
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It's not being tested. It's available today.
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And if you'd like to review the details of this study, you'll find that link in today's show notes.
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For 80 years, the National MS Society has reshaped the story of MS.
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Their efforts, their investments have fundamentally changed what it means when
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someone hears, you have MS.
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And if you'd like some perspective on this, just talk to someone who was diagnosed
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20 years ago and compare their experience, their options, to what they are today.
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You know, on this podcast, we often talk about the more than 20 different disease-modifying
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therapies that are available today.
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Well, society-funded research has contributed to the development of every one
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of those FDA-approved MS therapies.
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Today, the society is focusing its research investments on stopping MS,
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restoring lost function, and ending MS forever.
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More than half of the society-funded research projects are focused on stopping MS in its tracks.
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That means no new symptoms, no new damage, no more living with uncertainty.
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There are more than 30 projects being funded by the society that are advancing
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biomarker research that could detect MS earlier, and early intervention translates
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directly to a better outcome for the patient.
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More than 50 society-funded projects are working toward restoring myelin that's
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been damaged by MS, and that means restoring the function that MS has taken away.
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With 80 years of progress and over a billion dollars of research investment behind us,
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we're at a pivotal moment, a moment where you can step up and support research
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by supporting the organization that exists solely to support people affected by MS.
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Your support will go toward powering $119.6 million in active research,
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accelerating that work that brings us closer to ending MS.
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And when you give by July 31st, 100% of your gift will go to MS Research.
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If you're a regular listener, you know I rarely ask. But today I'm asking that
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if you're able, please visit nationalmssociety.org slash research and make your donation.
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And you'll find that link in today's show notes.
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If you're living with MS, you know that brain fog, that feeling of struggling
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with memory and focus, it's one of the most frustrating and one of the most
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common symptoms of the disease, affecting up to 70% of the MS population.
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And frankly, we've been short on medical options to treat it.
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But results of a new study suggest the answer might be found in a surprising
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place. Virtual reality.
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Researchers in Chile conducted a systematic review of 13 different clinical
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trials involving over 600 people with MS to see if VR-based rehabilitation actually
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improves cognitive function, and the results were clear.
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VR-based therapy is a safe, feasible, and effective tool for boosting brain health.
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Specifically, participants using VR platforms showed measurable improvements
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in processing speed, executive function, those are the skills we use to plan
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and organize, and visual spatial memory.
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That's your ability to recall objects and their locations in the world around you.
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So let's look at the benefits of VR-based rehabilitation.
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Traditionally, cognitive therapy can feel repetitive or disconnected from daily life.
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On the other hand, virtual reality offers what experts call ecological validity.
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It simulates real-world environments,
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like navigating a grocery store or managing a digital calendar.
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And that makes the training more engaging and impactful. In fact,
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the review found that adherence rates for these programs were over 80%.
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People stuck with it. Now, we aren't talking about a cure, and the research
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team emphasized that virtual reality should be considered a complementary tool.
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It works best when it's part of a broader care program with your occupational
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therapist or neurologist, but it's incredibly encouraging to see technology
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evolving to provide non-pharmacological ways to offset that MS-related brain fog.
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If you're feeling frustrated by cognitive slips, ask your care team if a cognitive
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rehab program or even a home-based teller rehab program could be the next step
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in your personal MS management plan.
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And if you'd like to review the details of this study, you'll find that link in today's show notes.
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If you happen to be a woman diagnosed with MS and you're between the ages of
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45 and 60 and are in the late reproductive stage, Early Perimenopause or Late
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Perimenopause Based on Menstrual History,
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you have an opportunity to participate in MS research from the comfort of your
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own home by completing three online surveys about perimenopause and MS.
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This national research study is being conducted by researchers at the University
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of Wisconsin-Madison, working with a team of national experts in MS neurology
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and women's health, and a community advisory board of women with MS.
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And the goal is to better understand the experiences, needs,
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and health changes of women with MS during the menopausal transition in order
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to develop and provide needed information and resources.
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Each survey respondent will complete three online surveys over a period of about 10 months.
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Each survey should take 20 to 30 minutes to complete, and a smaller group of
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participants will be invited to take part in a follow-up individual interview
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to share more about their experiences.
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Please also keep in mind that women who are currently pregnant or within 12
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months postpartum are not eligible to participate.
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If you do qualify to participate, please click on the link in today's show notes
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and become part of the research that's aiming to improve the lives of every woman living with MS.
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We often talk about the clinical side of MS on this show, the latest research,
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the breakthrough therapies,
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but there's a parallel journey that happens alongside those medical appointments,
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and that's the internal experience of living with an MS diagnosis.
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My guest, Liat Shalom, decided to document that experience in a way most people
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don't, through the lens of a graphic novel.
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Her memoir, Unraveled, uses illustration to capture the raw,
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unfiltered, and sometimes darkly humorous moments of life with MS that just
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don't fit into anyone's standard medical chart.
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In a moment, we'll meet Liat Shalom.
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Liat Shalom describes herself as an award-winning graphic novelist,
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MS advocate, and professional smartass who was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis at 30 in 2021.
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Rather than letting the diagnosis define her, Liat picked up her pen and began
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documenting her journey in a graphic memoir titled Unraveled.
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Welcome to the podcast, Liat.
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Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.
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Well, let's start way back in the beginning. Before you were diagnosed in 2021,
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you actually worked in film and TV production.
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What made you choose to share your MS journey through a graphic novel rather
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than a script or traditional documentary?
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When I got sick, so first of all, when you get sick, there's a period of brain
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inflammation where the processing of information is very difficult.
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So I remember getting sick and having this,
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probably a year period where I couldn't really read long, convoluted medical
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texts with a lot of big words I didn't understand. It was just all gibberish to me.
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And I remember thinking to myself like having a visual would be very helpful
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right now while I was in the hospital in recovery.
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And there was nothing available. And I kept asking my doctors,
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like, is there anything? Because My neurologist had an attitude,
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and it's probably the best piece of advice I was ever given, to not Google MS.
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Couldn't agree more.
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Yeah. So he told me when I got sick, you have MS.
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Here's a bunch of information you can read. Don't Google it.
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Don't look it up online. And I was an inpatient during COVID.
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So I wasn't interacting with any other patients. And that probably worked a
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little bit to my advantage because I had no idea what was ahead of me and how it was going to look.
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Well, I know that your MS diagnosis came after you took a fall and a misdiagnosis
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at a concussion clinic where they completely just wrote off all your symptoms.
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Um i was lucky that they even noticed i had a concussion but i remember meeting
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up with a doctor at a certain hospital and telling him i was first dizzy,
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then i fell not i fell hit my head and became dizzy so i tried explaining this to him,
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but he he wrote that off as this is long-term post-concussion syndrome,
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and throughout two years, he kept seeing
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me and sending me for cognitive assessment, and I was getting worse.
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And at no point did it, like,
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throw up the red flag of like, this patient needs an MRI or needs further testing.
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So it's a typical MS story in that regard of, I think a lot of us get misdiagnosed
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and it's always a battle to get to the diagnosis.
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So I wanted to share my personal battle, make others understand that like the
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confusion is part of the MS and other people go through it too.
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And we all share the same indignities of the disease.
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And I just, I kind of created my own community by making the book and sharing it online.
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So how did you channel the frustration of not being heard by the medical community
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into the early pages and sketches of Unraveled?
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I definitely documented my hours in the emergency room.
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In particular, I was in Canada, the system's very overwhelmed,
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and I was 17 hours in an emergency room hallway until I got an MRI. It was quite insane.
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So documented that, documented the procedures of going in and not being heard
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and meeting with the same doctor over and over.
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That was very frustrating. And sadly, in Canada, you can't sue a doctor.
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You can't really seek any legal retribution against any medical professionals.
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So I really had to channel everything into the book because there was no other way to be heard.
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Your portfolio features a great illustration that maps MS symptoms directly onto the body.
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Now, medical illustration is usually very cold and clinical,
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but yours balances health communication with really deep artistic expression.
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How do you approach drawing something abstract and frustrating like nerve pain
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or brain fog or tingling sensations?
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Um i'm you i'm drawing a lot from comic book language that's why i feel like
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graphic novel is the perfect medium for this,
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um and maybe later i'll be able to translate the feelings into a script but
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i really felt like certain things,
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like the the tingling in the hands there's no better way to show it than like
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the little zigzags and the doubling of lines and i find myself describing being
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to my neurologist things in a very,
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visual way when I go in anyways.
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So I felt like I wanted to bridge our conversation, the medical jargon,
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and what I'm actually feeling into visuals.
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MS can drastically affect manual dexterity and energy levels.
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What did the actual physical act of sketching and coloring look like for you
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on days when your body wasn't cooperating?
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So my diagnosis was extremely complex. I had a very strong onset of MS due to
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a different medication.
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I won't get into the whole history, but I had body paralysis on the entire right side of my body.
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I'm right hand dominant. So I essentially overnight couldn't walk,
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couldn't use my hand, lost my career.
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Even before I figured out what a mess was I figured out I can no longer go to
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set and work 12 to 14 hours a day according to my film contract so that was just.
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A very sad morning period and and then once I finished that that kind of sadness that I,
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came on for like a few weeks and started dealing with the mood swings,
00:20:54.300 --> 00:20:56.500
which was another thing I wasn't aware of.
00:20:57.450 --> 00:21:02.740
Um, I, and I started working with an OT at a hospital called Bridgepoint,
00:21:02.740 --> 00:21:04.760
which was a lifesaver for me.
00:21:05.330 --> 00:21:10.760
Um, me and her sat down and, uh, wrote down goals. She wrote down goals.
00:21:11.510 --> 00:21:16.010
And, uh, I told her that my goal is to be able to, to draw again.
00:21:16.010 --> 00:21:23.380
And we started slowly working on like here's the circle here's the line um let's
00:21:23.380 --> 00:21:29.300
you know so we slowly started incorporating that into my recovery and when I did that I was,
00:21:29.780 --> 00:21:36.550
extremely motivated again and uh I just I made it a goal when I was in recovery
00:21:36.960 --> 00:21:42.010
to not only use my hand again but be able to illustrate a full graphic novel,
00:21:42.620 --> 00:21:46.720
um when I left the hospital and started physically drawing again,
00:21:46.720 --> 00:21:49.840
I realized it was a lot more difficult.
00:21:49.840 --> 00:21:52.390
I do have my handshakes.
00:21:52.970 --> 00:21:57.820
I have dexterity issues that sadly never went away fully.
00:21:58.190 --> 00:22:07.670
So for me, it was figuring out what technology I could use to correct what my hand was doing.
00:22:08.290 --> 00:22:15.400
And luckily, I found the iPad and the iPad has a stabilization feature when
00:22:15.400 --> 00:22:18.810
you're drawing that counteracts the MS.
00:22:19.850 --> 00:22:25.390
So it created a situation where I could draw the way I naturally draw.
00:22:26.490 --> 00:22:33.350
And it was just amazing. So I started learning this new tool and took me about four.
00:22:33.350 --> 00:22:36.470
I thought it would take like one year and I was very optimistic.
00:22:36.470 --> 00:22:41.690
But four years later, the book is finally coming to close to a wrap.
00:22:41.690 --> 00:22:44.140
I'm hoping to get to print by October.
00:22:45.060 --> 00:22:51.390
Well, as you point out on your website, which our listeners can find at unraveledgraphicnovel.com,
00:22:51.860 --> 00:22:56.980
mainstream media often flattens chronic illness stories into two extremes,
00:22:57.560 --> 00:23:03.240
either a devastating tragedy or an overly sanitized, my goodness,
00:23:03.240 --> 00:23:05.920
you're so brave, inspirational piece.
00:23:06.400 --> 00:23:12.840
Your stated goal is to show that life with MS is messier, funnier, and more human.
00:23:13.460 --> 00:23:18.430
So how did dark humor become such an important survival tool for you?
00:23:19.100 --> 00:23:28.310
I think just being of the cultural background that I am, which is, uh, I grew up in Israel.
00:23:28.310 --> 00:23:33.670
I'm an immigrant from a not very beloved country and, uh,
00:23:34.460 --> 00:23:40.360
and working in film and just everything I've been through has made me very resilient,
00:23:40.360 --> 00:23:43.490
but also have like a very positive and, uh,
00:23:44.280 --> 00:23:48.460
And kind of look at the humor and things attitude about life.
00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:53.520
And I think it made me be able to accept the MS diagnosis.
00:23:53.520 --> 00:23:59.980
For me, it was like developing a radical acceptance and then finding humor in
00:23:59.980 --> 00:24:04.830
it. And I think my neurologist was kind of shocked how I would make like really
00:24:04.830 --> 00:24:06.670
dark jokes with him right away.
00:24:08.010 --> 00:24:13.040
And I saw it created like a happier atmosphere for the staff as well.
00:24:13.040 --> 00:24:17.040
Because I feel like they'd come into my room and they'd be all sad,
00:24:17.040 --> 00:24:20.260
like, oh, my God, you're so young. This is so sad. And I'm like,
00:24:21.020 --> 00:24:25.220
let's, you know, try to find a different way to frame things because I really
00:24:25.220 --> 00:24:26.880
didn't like that narrative.
00:24:28.050 --> 00:24:34.850
So really, I feel like my whole project and my existence and way of being is about thriving with MS.
00:24:35.470 --> 00:24:38.750
Well, I just heard you use that term radical acceptance.
00:24:39.110 --> 00:24:42.870
I wanted to ask you about it because I know you've spoken about that concept
00:24:43.210 --> 00:24:47.180
as a means of thriving with MS rather than just surviving.
00:24:47.550 --> 00:24:49.640
What does radical acceptance mean
00:24:49.640 --> 00:24:53.970
to you in practice, and how does that philosophy show up in Unraveled?
00:24:54.850 --> 00:24:59.210
Um, radical acceptance, funny enough, comes from,
00:25:00.160 --> 00:25:07.550
the idea of, of accepting the things you cannot change, um, and finding the
00:25:07.550 --> 00:25:10.190
most positive way to deal with them.
00:25:10.810 --> 00:25:16.100
But also pushing yourself. And for me, that's what it was.
00:25:16.100 --> 00:25:22.410
It was accepting it and then finding a new way to frame my life and push myself
00:25:22.410 --> 00:25:26.650
to do great things within my new abilities.
00:25:27.340 --> 00:25:32.840
Unraveled functions as both a personal memoir and a user-friendly roadmap for
00:25:32.840 --> 00:25:36.790
patients, families affected by MS, and healthcare providers.
00:25:37.520 --> 00:25:43.390
If someone who's been newly diagnosed picks up your book, what do you hope they take away from it?
00:25:44.170 --> 00:25:47.740
I hope they take away from it, first of all, that they're not alone.
00:25:48.270 --> 00:25:52.570
The exact same confusing things are happening to other people.
00:25:54.510 --> 00:25:58.480
And you will, at the end, find a way to cope. It gets better.
00:25:59.440 --> 00:26:04.850
Um i heard the word progressive when i got sick and it really upset me because,
00:26:05.420 --> 00:26:11.260
when i was sick my neurological condition at the time before i started biologic
00:26:11.260 --> 00:26:18.160
medication was so bad that i felt like i lost all capacity to understand life,
00:26:19.060 --> 00:26:24.530
um and i felt very alone like it was uh like i said it was covid i couldn't
00:26:24.530 --> 00:26:30.850
have visitors i couldn't interact with other patients, it was like the extreme of isolation.
00:26:32.060 --> 00:26:36.870
It was difficult to accept that I had MS at 30 years old.
00:26:37.730 --> 00:26:46.030
I remember having a lot of questions about the future, and the doctors and nurses
00:26:46.030 --> 00:26:50.020
are very encouraging about one step at a time, and, you know,
00:26:50.020 --> 00:26:52.140
don't freak out about the bigger picture.
00:26:53.250 --> 00:26:57.280
But it is very difficult not to do. So I wanted to create a book where people
00:26:57.280 --> 00:27:03.390
could kind of skim forward to the end or to the middle and find where they are
00:27:03.390 --> 00:27:06.780
and that it does get better in the process.
00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:12.220
Okay. Now, on the flip side, what do you hope neurologists, physical therapists,
00:27:12.220 --> 00:27:16.230
occupational therapists, and other healthcare providers learn about the patient
00:27:16.230 --> 00:27:18.290
experience by reading Unraveled?
00:27:19.370 --> 00:27:24.940
I hope that they see the patient as a whole. I find that different doctors have
00:27:24.940 --> 00:27:32.770
different specialties and they tend to let's say the neurologist sometimes will know a lot about,
00:27:33.450 --> 00:27:39.670
the medication treatment but he won't know anything about the diet treatment
00:27:39.670 --> 00:27:42.340
or alternative therapies,
00:27:43.510 --> 00:27:48.670
and I find that in the MS community there's kind of an attitude of one or the other.
00:27:49.110 --> 00:27:53.590
People tend to be either very, I'm doing everything naturally,
00:27:53.990 --> 00:27:57.870
or I'm going exactly by what the doctor says.
00:27:59.090 --> 00:28:04.670
I do both. I found the middle, and it works for me, and I hope I can share my
00:28:04.670 --> 00:28:06.390
experiences with others.
00:28:06.390 --> 00:28:12.380
It's a very snowflake disease. We're all different, so what works for me might
00:28:12.380 --> 00:28:18.170
not work for others, but I want to be a positive inspiration in our community.
00:28:19.020 --> 00:28:22.600
I think that artists learn about themselves through their work.
00:28:23.300 --> 00:28:28.130
Looking back at your journey from your diagnosis back in 2021 to releasing this
00:28:28.130 --> 00:28:32.860
graphic novel, what did you take away from the process of writing and drawing Unraveled?
00:28:33.540 --> 00:28:37.950
The book developed as I was learning the disease, really.
00:28:37.950 --> 00:28:41.670
So it's just been an interesting learning curve.
00:28:41.670 --> 00:28:45.970
And I feel like this book will probably be like the first of a series because,
00:28:46.410 --> 00:28:52.100
again, the disease progresses and hopefully the medication will get better and
00:28:52.100 --> 00:28:53.910
maybe even a cure, you know, so,
00:28:54.670 --> 00:28:57.640
lots of room to grow the book, hopefully in the future.
00:28:58.610 --> 00:29:05.130
But I hope that what I've learned, essentially, what I've learned,
00:29:05.130 --> 00:29:07.390
well, sorry, that's a really difficult question.
00:29:08.900 --> 00:29:15.740
I've learned how to manage the disease. And I've learned that we're a community
00:29:15.740 --> 00:29:22.360
that shares information from one to the other that doctors wouldn't necessarily know.
00:29:22.360 --> 00:29:27.880
So I think I've learned that the community aspect of our disease is extremely important.
00:29:28.360 --> 00:29:34.210
And I've seen it by the reactions of readers to my, well, the book isn't out
00:29:34.210 --> 00:29:36.470
yet, but the Instagram pages.
00:29:36.870 --> 00:29:43.300
And I get responses from people that like found my page and are newly diagnosed
00:29:43.300 --> 00:29:51.310
and feel like they're less alone and found the community and understand what's happening better um so,
00:29:51.970 --> 00:29:54.140
that's that's all I could have asked for,
00:29:55.440 --> 00:30:01.680
that's what I'm learning is that as terrifying as it was for me it's it feels the same for everyone.
00:30:02.590 --> 00:30:06.740
We've been discussing the graphic novel, Unraveled. I've already ordered my
00:30:06.740 --> 00:30:11.920
copy, and you can order yours by visiting unraveledgraphicnovel.com.
00:30:12.540 --> 00:30:16.930
Liat Shalom, thank you for raising awareness by sharing your MS journey through
00:30:16.930 --> 00:30:21.000
a fairly unique medium, and thanks so much for talking with me today.
00:30:22.070 --> 00:30:24.740
Thank you so much for having me. It means so much.
00:30:25.610 --> 00:30:30.290
That's going to wrap up this episode of Real Talk MS. Real Talk MS is powered
00:30:30.290 --> 00:30:32.020
by the National MS Society.
00:30:32.440 --> 00:30:36.570
And you can share this episode of the podcast by letting your friends or family
00:30:36.570 --> 00:30:44.380
members know that all they have to do is point their web browser at realtalkms.com slash 464.
00:30:44.930 --> 00:30:49.100
You'll find that link in today's show notes, so you can easily copy and paste
00:30:49.100 --> 00:30:51.500
it right into an email or a text.
00:30:52.710 --> 00:30:56.940
I think that it's human nature to understand things from the perspective of
00:30:56.940 --> 00:30:58.600
where we happen to be planted.
00:30:59.370 --> 00:31:03.820
If you're living in the U.S., you tend to think about MS research and MS care
00:31:04.120 --> 00:31:07.170
in terms of the healthcare system here in the United States.
00:31:07.670 --> 00:31:11.170
And if you're living in a European nation, you think about those things as they
00:31:11.170 --> 00:31:13.380
relate to healthcare in the European Union.
00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:19.240
So step back for a moment and try to consider what MS care might be like from
00:31:19.240 --> 00:31:21.910
the perspective of Tibetan society.
00:31:22.600 --> 00:31:27.820
My guest next week is Dr. Avinash Chandra, an MS specialist who trained at a
00:31:27.820 --> 00:31:30.600
world-class MS center in the United States,
00:31:30.870 --> 00:31:37.990
only to return home to Tibet to discover that MS was officially considered non-existent in his country.
00:31:38.740 --> 00:31:41.520
This is a conversation you won't want to miss.
00:31:42.490 --> 00:31:49.070
I'm Jon Strum. Thanks for listening. Stay safe and make healthy choices.
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